The use of profanity
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At Passion 2007, John Piper, theologian and pastor extraordinaire got “down and dirty” with collegians about applying the radical words of Christ to real-life living. What he actually said was there is a siginificant difference in God disciplining his children and saying that “he kicks our asses.”
Had I been there, I most assuredly would have sat up and listened more raptly. In all the times I’ve heard Piper speak, both in person and podcast, I’ve never even had a hint that he knew any profanity, much less knew how to use it. I’m reminded of all Star Trek episode in a planetary gangster society where Spock had to cuss to fit in and just couldn’t get it right.
But here is Piper’s online apology. And here is Wayne Gruden’s response.Before you think this is much ado about nothing, in Gruden’s response, there is a profound and eloquent explanation of why profanity and lesser language can detract from a beleiver’s witness that is simply a must read. It’s definitely something to chew on.
Then I would point you to Tim Challie’s blog entry on the whole matter.
After all that reading, I’d be interested in knowing how it made you think, reflect, and where you might stand on things. That means you lurkers too, darn it!
January 15th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
what the ?@!# ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!! I can’t use @#!$ cuss words as a @#(*ing Christian? The NERVE!
January 15th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
In my opinion, the only thing Piper did wrong was that he should’ve been smarter. Usually profanities are classified into three main areas: obscenity, vulgarity, and blasphemy. The latter, it is not debatable, is a sin. The appropriateness of other two, it could be argued, may depend upon the situation, although I do believe that the choice to use them will always reflect, in others’ eyes, upon one’s character.
Piper states that he was using the term for strategic “tittilation” to keep the attention of his audience. He may have been wrong on two counts: 1) that he believed a “college age” audience needed the swear word to remain attentive (so he doesn’t think much of young people), and 2) that he didn’t understand WHERE he was. I guarantee that ANY other speaker at ANY other venue (rather than a conservative Christian rally) would not have gotten a blink from the use of the phrase (not even from Christians), but because of the environment, he inadvertently crossed an unwritten line of expected conduct.
Bottom line: Piper is not “bad,” but his judgment might be. Perhaps he should have looked himself up on the LibraryThing Unsuggester before he went to speak…then he might have better judged the “tastes” of those who had showed up to listen to him.
January 15th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
I must first say that I am thoroughly impressed with the manner of which this issue is being discussed-in the fact that Piper’s character was not harshly judged because of the profanity he used and then proceeding with downgrading his christian status within certain minds……As would have happened in other venues.
I must say I also disagree with Tim ,though.
I do not think that what comes out of your mouth is always evident of what is in your heart.Just as your actions may be a sin-but not a true depiction of your heart,as a christian,so may your speak be a sin and not a true depiction of your heart,as a christian.
This is an issue that I know personally,many christians struggle with.Not the right or wrong of it-but controlling it,like a bad habit.
January 15th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
this one has always been kind of hard for me, personally. i was raised around what is considered by most to be very vulgar language. it was part of everyday life - and to this day i have never found it offensive. i certainly don’t fault piper for using profanity, and don’t really agree that it sheds any light on the condition of his heart - his life should be proof enough of that. although, all sin, and he is no different than any other man; however, i do my best to stir clear of profanity simply out of respect for others. and i will also say that in the entire 11 years i’ve known my husband, i have never heard him use any profanity…his ability to show such restraint and remain clean in this area alone seperates him from many - brings honor, trust, and respect from those who know him. considering how strongly james urges the church to beware of the tongue, this issue and many other forms of slander with the mouth deserves attention.
January 16th, 2007 at 12:11 am
i’m reminded of tony campolo… one of the things he is most passionate about is poverty, especially its effect on children around the world. he often will begin a speech thusly:
“i have three things I’d like to say today. first, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. second, most of you don’t give a sh*t. what’s worse is that you’re more upset with the fact that i said sh*t than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
in that context, it certainly makes a person stop dead in his tracks and rethink his or her priorities. no way can that point be made any more effectively than by employing the shock-value of that word.
there seems to be a lot of debate about certain terminology used in the bible… whether it can in fact be translated from the greek or hebrew to be taken as a vulgar or obscene expression… for example philippians 3:8, where paul says that ecxept for the greatness of knowing Christ, he counts all other things as “rubbish”, “trash”, etc.(depending on the translation used)… KJV renders this as “dung”, and interestingly enough, the wycliffe new testament renders this as “drit”, parenthetically described as… “turds”! and i believe wycliffe knows a thing or two about translating the bible. however, in all the tranlsations i researched, not one translated it as “sh*t.” of course i’m laughing at myself at this very moment, wondering what difference it makes to replace the letter “i” with an asterisk??
in the end though, to me, its best to avoid vulgarity, profanity and crude language… my original idea for a name for my dart team notwithstanding :-) (jeff, mark and jim know what the h*ck i’m talking about)
January 16th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately as part of my bigger rumination about how to be culturally relevant while separate.
Understand, that I am a reforming Pharisee with a major in legalism (and did I mention a first born child of a Southern Baptist minister?) raised in a house where we couldn’t say “shut up” (my mother just shivered somewhere and has no idea why). So maybe I should recuse myself from this discussion.
It seems like my friends lately fall in one of two camps and I find myself somewhere between the two. On one side I have friends that have very strong opinions on what Christians should listen to, watch and read. The other group feels that the world needs to see Christians as approachable and something they would want to be as opposed to the way the media often paints us. That group sees no problem with language colored in shades of blue while the other group won’t say gosh, darn, or heck because they think they’re just different forms of more offensive words.
Here’s what I know. I know I have seen a culture shift in my lifetime from words that are considered okay and not okay. I’ve had more than one occasion to turn to my husband while watching TV and say, “I didn’t know they were allowed to say that.” I know that the Bible says that “out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.” I found countless places in the Word that link our hearts and mouths, so I’m sure there must be a connection. I know that the world has an image of Christians as people who go around judging everyone for what they do and say. I also know that Jesus spent most of his time with people who were a little rough around the edges. I don’t think however that he had to do what they did and sound like they sounded in order to be accepted by them.
I don’t think a potty mouth will send you to hell any more than drinking a beer will. But my reasons for abstaining from both is that I think maybe just because we can doesn’t always mean we should.
I can’t wait to see what everyone else has to say because I really want to dig deeper.
P.S. Jeff, our Target didn’t have any of those Holiday Nuts. Sorry. I hope I didn’t just cause my brother to stumble and say a potty word.
January 16th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Great comments so far!
Amy, I am holding you directly responsible if coffee stains my LCD.
I’m also reminded of Paul’s words regarding there are some things that while being permissible, are not beneficial.
However, I don’t know if profanity or being “profane” is even permissible for the Christ follower who is called to be holy before he’s called to be hip.
I’m certainly not above this issue, and I think that Christ is calling His bride in our day to truly follow Him rather than seeking to blend.
The Father can and does use all things, working together, for His glory, but why do we presume that living a life of Christ-likeness isn’t attractive to a lost world? His life was obviously history-altering.
Perhaps the church’s obsession with being “relevant” today is actually more of junior-high self-esteem problem. Perhaps… we just want people to like us rather than we want people to see Jesus?
Keep those thoughts coming…
January 16th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
during the PMRC hearings about whether music should have an explicit lyrics label. Dee Snider made a very profound statement. if you disregard blasphemy… profanity has nothing to do with Christianity. It is a decision we make as a person whether to use or not to use profanity. the decision not to use blasphemy is made for us by Christ. This is not a thin line to walk either, everyone who believes knows the difference.
January 17th, 2007 at 6:30 am
What is really interesting to me is that I’m not at all sure that this would have caused a stir at all in a UK context. Our view as to what constitutes profane language is very cultural. I’m aware that there are certain words and phrases that Christians would or might use here in England, that would cause deep offence in the US and vice versa.
January 18th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
I’m with Richard (no.9) - being UK based, I don’t think the particular word is that offensive, although I wouldn’t normally expect to hear it in church, a conference or convention might be a different thing.
More broadly, though is not which words we find offensive and which not - or is it? Four-letter words are often classed as ‘Anglo-Saxon’ (whether that is accurate or not I don’t know) and certainly the history of about 1000 years ago led to a (I believe) mostly French or French-speaking ruling class and a downtrodden underclass of ‘native’ Saxons (I think - my history’s pretty poor) so perhaps the Saxon words were considered beyond the pale while the French ones were counted all right? I’m in the realms of speculation here… but it all seems pretty cultural.
For Christians though, we have the injunctions to tame the tongue, to focus on what is good, pure, right, lovely etc and not to cause our brothers to stumble. Personally I try not to swear, am not so concerned about mangled or bowdlerised oaths although would avoiding the ones derived from blasphemies, and if one slips out (me or someone else) I don’t get hung up about it but I still aim not to do it again (if it’s me). This may become more of an issue as our son grows up, however.
The really weird thing was when I was in secular employment, known to be a Christian (or at least ‘religious’ or ‘churchgoer’) and colleagues would swear and then apologise because I was in earshot. Never quite knew how to handle it…
PS Jeff, apologies for not posting sooner and thanks for your comment!
January 18th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Richard and Nodrog, I’m especially intrigued by the whole concept of culturally-defined profanity. It was not something I had initially considered when I was sifting through the entry.
I think in larger circles that the use of the tongue is, indeed, a flaming fire that can destroy forests and we must learn to manage it as we do a horse with a bit in his mouth.
It’s not just those ever-so-familiar 4-letters that we should limit to the definition of “profane.” I think conversational obscenity can be classified as much more than that. We can have a profane dialogue without ever dropping the s-bomb.
I do find it mysterious and want Nodrog or someone smarter than I - Mark, perhaps? - to explain why you rarely see a 5+ letter “cuss” word. What’s the deal with that? Is it because profanity is typically uttered by idiots without a vocabulary?
And what’s the deal with Christian substitution? Should we simply avoid all expressions of surprise, insult, and consternation?
Holy cow! Omigosh! Aw shucks! Darnit! etc…
January 20th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
by far a head-scratcher on the 5 letter “cuss” words. However the 7 letter one that “legitimately” refers to an illegitimate child break the 4-letter rule.
what is profane? is there really a clean word for “poop?” I prefer not to use words that have been deemed culturally as profane. I also don’t want my children to hear them. But what’s been convicting to me lately is that I say “crap” all the time, but jump on my children when they say it. HMMMMM! I’m with you Jeff, is there a difference in the substitution, but like Dean - should we be so bound that we can’t say it? Are we less of a Christian if a culturally-deemed curse word slips out?
I do believe that it’s all about self-control and doing what we should be doing instead of focusing on what we should not be doing.
It’s funny since we’re on the subject, how many people are teaching that “thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain” in Exodus 20 is referring to saying G.D. or saying God or Jesus as an expression. Although the Names referring to the Godhead are holy and must be revered, that scripture is not referring to our words. It’s referring to our lives. Saying He is your God and not living like He is your God is what it is referring to.
January 20th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Jeff,
Very short response…it’s not necessarily about the number of letters, but about syllables. Most curses are short and explosive words. It gives them power. One of the most offensive things about them (other than to what they refer) is the emotive power they carry. Words of three syllables or more are just to unweildly for cursing. I’m not even sure someone could shout out a three-syllable-monster upon stubbing a toe or hitting a thumb with a hammer. The brain may only have time for the quickest, most powerful emotive word at hand. Now that I think about it, that is probably why people who curse frequently usually have a word of choice - they can rely on it without even having to think. I guess that means that whether we get onto people for cursing or let it go, we can be sure that whenever someone does, they aren’t thinking. :)
January 21st, 2007 at 1:05 am
Damn! That’s deep.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:11 am
[...] that John Piper, theologian par excellent, used “profanity” in a message at Passion 07. I wrote about it here. Then there’s the “cussin’ pastor,” Mark Driscoll who leads Mars Hill [...]
February 18th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
I never had a problem with profanity until I met Carolyn (talk about Miss Potty Mouth, in high school) and when Jeff was on my staff at FBC Garland!
Saint Kevin
February 20th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I never had a problem with it either until then… Hmmm. Thanks for reminding me. ;)