23 Comments

Jim August 15, 2007 at 9:50 am

I think the term ‘community of believers’ needs to be defined.

Reply
K.T. August 15, 2007 at 10:38 am

Yes,I agree with Jim,because everytime I talk with you all-I am involved with a community of believers-but I am a Christian as well-but I dont go to church……curious no one has really ever asked me why I dont attend….hmmmm.LOL

Reply
Richard Pool August 15, 2007 at 11:11 am

I’m yet to be convinced, it’s jut too narrow a perspective for me. I’ve been sitting mulling this over and while I see the point and agree to an extent, there’s something about “categorical” that doesn’t fit.
When I became a Christian I became a part of the wider family of believers across space and time. But I didn’t become part of the family before becoming a follwer of Jesus.
And from a differnet perspective, when I was born I was born into the “Pool” family. Am I any less a member of that family because I don’t get to spend a whole lot of time with them all? Is my namesake cousin any less of a cousin to me because we may only see each other every couple of years?
My life is probably poorer for not spendig time with the family, and my Christian life might be poorer for not spending time with the Christian family, but I’m not sure you could reject my Christian family membership just because I don’t attend family functions.
I need to keep thinking about this I feel.

Reply
Josh R August 15, 2007 at 11:23 am

A quick search for all of the things we are to do to “one another” in the new testament yields a pretty significant list. Many of the commandments acknowlege that it is not easy i.e. “Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.” Colossians 3:13

You could be a Christian and be disconnected, but unless you are seriously oppressed by an external force, you cannot be a obedient Christian and be disconnected.

Reply
Pam August 15, 2007 at 12:15 pm

I agree with Richard’s comment. I just makes me tired to read stuff like this and yet I read it anyway…

one of the many inconsistencies within Christianity is all the talk about how easy it is to become a christian ( pray this prayer and mean it from your heart) and then afterward, the list appears. First God accepts you just as you are, and then, you’re not acceptable unless you do everything on the list.
1. daily devotions 2. tithing 3. witnessing 4. prayer 5. fasting 6. regular church attendance 7. volunteering 8.mission trips
that’s my rant on the subject.

Reply
Jeff August 15, 2007 at 3:31 pm
K.T. and Jim are dead on when it comes to defining our terms here. I can’t speak for the author of the original post that I linked, but for me, a community of believers should necessarily include some but not all of the following:
Hebrews 10.24-25 says, “And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

I think it’s important to recognize that a “community of believers” – or church – is identifiably and regularly gathered to worship, pray, receive exhortation and instruction and be equipped by spiritually-gifted leaders.

An excellent read is Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s book Life Together. It explores what it means to be the church of Christ in any culture. It’s particularly meaningful since Bonhoeffer was matyred for his faith by Hitler’s minions.

I think our individualistic, anti-establishment Western mindset is contrary to the concept of the body of Christ in many ways. Tell the underground Chinese church that you can be a “Christian” without desiring to unite with other Christians, and I believe you’d find they would think it somewhat of a contradiction. They (and other believers across our planet) risk death daily to surround themselves with the encouragement and lives of other saints as they pursue the mission of extending Christ’s glory and kingdom.

I think much of the isolationist mindset may occur because we fail to understand that we weren’t “saved” simply to “go to heaven,” but rather we were saved as an unearned, glorious gift of God’s grace and given the privilege of participating in the mission of God in our own day.

Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples… (Read 1 Chronicles 16.7-26 and let’s ask ourselves if we are to simply enjoy God’s blessings for ourselves).
Reply
Jeff August 15, 2007 at 4:03 pm

Pam, I don’t think it’s inconsistent at all, but rather it’s a matter of love.

You said…

First God accepts you just as you are, and then, you’re not acceptable unless you do everything on the list.

First of all, God doesn’t accept us “as we are.” We must submit to Him as the Creator of All and recognize that there is only one name given under heaven by which men can be saved. That is the caveat. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” When any person – regardless of background, race, etc. comes to Christ in repentance, He does offer complete and total forgiveness – salvation is His gift for our faith.

Second of all, there is no “list.” Christianity doesn’t say you “have to” – rather the Gospel says that the “love of Christ compels us.” In other words, when we’re in love with Christ, you want to know Him more by reading His Word, by telling others about forgiveness in Him (isn’t that the highest act of love?), etc.

I mean, when we’ve been redeemed and saved from our sins – that means they’ve been obliterated! We are free through faith in Christ Jesus! Any person who has thus experienced this freedom and forgiveness lives a lifestyle of eternal gratitude. For the alternative is simply horrible. For me personally then, there truly is no feeling of “have to,” but rather it’s a consistent, heart-felt desire to praise and honor the one who has graced me.

Reply
hamo August 15, 2007 at 8:11 pm

Interesting to see the discussion!

Thanks Jeff :)

Perhaps those who haven’t read the original post should read it and see how I was defining a ‘covenant’ community of believers, because it is much more than going to church on Sunday!

I don’t believe it is a legalism as pam suggests, but an unavoidable implication of discipleship that needs to be spoken of even moreso in the individualistic world Jeff mentions

Reply
Shelley August 16, 2007 at 11:53 am

oooh KT is telling fibs, I ask her all the time to come, and why she doesn’t, do I not count????

I know my worshipping could in no way be as complete as it is without doing it in a group. Even a small group, of a handful of people would work for me, but I admit, I do enjoy our “slightly larger than small group” we have at Journey. I like knowing everyone’s names. And I like being able to present my own struggles to people I know are truly friends.
Maybe everyone doesn’t need this closeness from their christian brothers and sisters, but I know I do. Or maybe some dont’ realize what they are missing?

Reply
K.T. August 16, 2007 at 4:39 pm

Shelley-I didnt meant that no one has asked why I dont go to Journey-No one has ever asked why I didnt go to church prior to journey or now-but not specifically to Journey.

Reply
dean August 16, 2007 at 7:00 pm

great discussion!

great discussion! i have to say, i cant really go along with the viewpoint that an online fellowship or community is anywhere near being on the same level as a fellowship or community of believers that regularly meets together in person. same would hold true for the many people i’ve known throughout the years that “go to church on the TV.” there may be wonderful preaching on TV, but there is a total lack of fellowship on the part of the viewer with the people who are members of the church that is broadcasting its services over the airwaves (well, through a cable for most folks now).

as for whether the traditional church setting (at least what we know as traditional here in the west) is the only legitimate means to accomplish that fellowship, i would have to say no. what we call church today in no way resembles the first century church. this isnt necessarily a bad thing mind you, just a different thing. while the house church movement (in the west anyway) by and large gets a good bit of ridicule hurled in its direction, it most closely resembles what the first century church looked like in its intimacy and in its structure.

as for the question itself, i agree with josh… not going to church, or not gathering together in fellowship with other believers (however you wish to refer to it) doesnt mean you arent a Christian, but it does mean you are a disobedient and isolated one.

Reply
Pam August 17, 2007 at 2:58 pm

Kudos for the good topic, Jeff! It’s really got us talking.

Reply
K.T. August 17, 2007 at 11:22 pm

Jim-
We are all disobedient in some way, shape or form in our christian walk.

Reply
dean August 17, 2007 at 11:59 pm

KT…

i dont want to be presumptuous, but just from reviewing what i’ve written here in the comments and what jim has written, i’m guessing your last comment was for me and not jim. if i’m wrong about that, accept my apology for being forward and replying to you here.

you are correct, we all are at one time or another, in one way or another, disobedient… in other words, we sin. in my own life, (and please understand i am not trying to be boastful here), i try not to continue on in a sin once i’ve been convicted of it and repented of it. now then, i dont have any idea of your personal situation, so please do not gather from what i just wrote that i’m saying you’re habitually sinning because you dont attend a church. but since you were wondering aloud in your initial comment about why nobody has ever asked you why you dont go to church, i’ll go ahead and stick my neck out here :-)… why don’t you attend church?

also, since we would all agree that we are capable of individual worship of God (in fact, according to paul in romans 12, our entire life is supposed to be an act of worship and sacrifice unto God), i believe that corporate worship is therefore more for ourselves and each other, than it is for God. we deprive not only ourselves of a blessing, but also those with whom we would otherwise be sharing fellowship with. poet john donne famously said “no man is an island,” and the writer of the book of hebrews narrowed it down even more in ch. 10, verse 25: “let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing…” its clear that fellowship and accountability to one another was a very big deal in the early Christian church.

Reply
K.T. August 18, 2007 at 11:53 am

You are right,Deano,that last comment was for you-it has been crazy around here and my head is not always in the right place…..

Anyhow,I have a lists of reasons actually…..shoot me an email(I have one provided on my profile) :D

Reply
TJ August 18, 2007 at 12:15 pm

Everyone…
I think that someone who will say in this day and time that they can serve Jesus on their own is kidding themselves. First that completely defies the whole “body of Christ” concept. Even though our modern-day concept of “Church” is a little different than what we see in scriptures, we still stay consistent by gathering together with other believers (Hebrews 10:25), preaching and teaching the Gospel of Christ (Acts 5:42), and it’s still somewhat consistent with the apostles going to the synagogues for worship, teaching and prayer (acts 13:14 0 – do a study on what the Biblical synagogue was while you’re there – you’ll find we’re not too far off with the congregational format if at all).

Here’s some real reasons I believe people run away from “church”

1 – they don’t want to live according to the Biblical teachings that are taught, let alone hear about how God expects us to live. (Shouldn’t be changing that)
2 – if they don’t get things their way, they’ll just stay at home.
3 – (not be confused with #2)church has become a social club where there is no life or mission in a local church in their town

What bothers me is to see people shrivel up and die spiritually because they “don’t need” other Christians. There is power in being in covenant with a group of other believers to work together as one in mission and vision as to what they will do to win the world to Christ.

So in short, I guess what I’m trying to say here is it’s all how you look at it. If it’s membership to a club, or for your weekly church attendance checkmark so that you can feel and look like a Christian, then going to church isn’t doing you any good. But if it’s about unity, worshipping together with other believers, being taught from the Word, fellowship, and missional direction in life – I believe being in church is CRITICAL! When you have that priority correct, attending church won’t just be about Sunday services, it will be about your spiritual life, and about getting you into your divine purpose.

Reply
dean August 18, 2007 at 2:37 pm

TJ

i agree pretty much with everything you’ve written here. i know of many folks down through the years that do not want to be confronted with the truth of the gospel, because once they’ve heard it, they have to act on it (either accept or reject it), and yes it will indeed change lives!

back at the beginning of the comments, jim said that the term “community of believers” needs to be defined. one definition of “community of believers” could certainly be “church.” conversely, “church” could certainly be defined as “community of believers” too (unless, as you pointed out, it serves more as a social club than a place of worship , fellowship, preaching and teaching). Jesus left no doubt about the fact that “church” is where it all has to happen (“on this rock I will build my church…”).

i remember seeing a comment on another post here from a guy who disparagingly referred to journey church as a “church… using the term loosely…” presumably because journey doesnt fit the traditional church mold. hard to say for sure because of some of the other convoluted statements he made, but by and large many folks do condemn churches that dont have steeples, pews, sing the first, second and last stanza of every single song (hymns only, btw), only “just as i am” as the hymn of invitation (that one is the exception to the “1st, 2nd and last” rule however… you can sing ALL the verses of that one, multiple times over:-), etc. you get the picture. i believe, pretty much within the parameters of what jeff set forth in his definition of “community of believers” above, you can, should and will have quite a diversity in how said communities define themselves.

one point i would disagree with you on… i was reading the passage from acts 13 about the disciples (paul and barnabas) going to the synagogue. their purpose for going was to preach Christ to the God-fearing jews and converted (to judaism) gentiles. that was pretty basically paul’s strategy whenever he arrived at a new city or region, was to go straight to the synagogue and preach Christ. if the gospel wasnt well-received, he shook the dust from his sandals and left. i dont think we want to hold that model up to compare favorably with the new testament church. synagogue-goers of the time werent there to hear about Jesus and Him crucified, and many times, when they did hear it they rejected it, often violently.

Reply
dean August 18, 2007 at 3:38 pm

KT…

i’ll take you up on that, but i cant seem to find your profile on your blog anymore…

Reply
Jeff August 19, 2007 at 6:16 pm

It’s interesting to me how much feedback this simple post from a post has generated. I just completed reading Is Your Church Ready? Motivating Leaders to Live an Apologetic Life, and it had the following point in it about this very topic:
Young believers think they can be solitary Christians

It’s not just an issue being wrestled with occasionally; rather, it’s one that has an extraordinarily long life cycle that experiences ebbs and flows like the tide.
The author says this about Christians who “think they can worship, pray, study Scripture, and practice the Christian disciplines all by themselves without fellowship with other believers:”

That’s like a soldier thinking he can stay alive and fight just as well when separated from his unit>

Soldiers who are isolated from the main force face immediate hardship. Consider the danger the famed 507th Maintenance Company was in (including Jessica Lynch) in April 2003 when their convoy took a wrong turn and was ambushed in Iraq.
Isolation is a strong word that has negative connotations for believers.
Consider the following folksy illustration told in many a church over the years:

How important is our fellowship in the local church? Let me answer that question by telling a story.

A minister was concerned about the absence of a man who had normally attended services. After a few weeks, he decided to visit him. When the pastor arrived at the man’s home, he found him all alone, sitting in front of a fireplace. The minister pulled up a chair and sat next to him. But after his initial greeting he said nothing more.

The two sat in silence for a few minutes while the minister stared at the flames in the fireplace. Then he took the tongs and carefully picked up one burning ember from the flames and placed it on the hearth. He sat back in his chair, still silent. His host watched in quiet reflection as the ember flickered and faded. Before long it was cold and dead.

The minister glanced at his watch and said he had to leave, but first he picked up the cold ember and placed it back in the fire. Immediately it began to glow again with the light and warmth of the burning coals around it.

As the minister rose to leave, his host stood with him and shook his hand. Then, with a smile on his face, the man said, “Thanks for the sermon, pastor. I’ll see you in church on Sunday.” —David Roper

Lord, help us see how much we need each other
As we walk along the Christian way;
In fellowship with sister and with brother,
You will keep us growing day by day. —Hess

The warm fellowship of the church will keep your heart from growing cold.